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buddhism
March 2009 
Is Enlightenment the final Death? Life after Oneness?
Posted on Sep 14th, 2008
by 
Daniel: Devotee and Mystic
Daniel: Devotee and Mystic
I have noticed there is a certain negativity attached to life by many. I way of thinking that individuality is something bad, like a punishment of some sort. Statements such as we are born sinful, or life is suffering.
There is an idea out there that individuality is some impermanent illusion, one that isn't real, a dream. The solution to this is to wake up, or so they say.
I dissagree totally with the Hindu teaching that life is a lila, some divine play, a dream that God is having, implying that God is asleep. Where will these masters that die after their "enlightenment" go when they die? Will they merge with the whole, or cease to be individuals? Imagine the selfishness of such a thing. To learn so many things, only to voluntarily die/merge into the one? What would be the point of going from being the one, to being an individual only to just go right back where you came from?
Beyond that, why and how did individuality occur in the first place? I remember reading in the Bible a certain person who questioned Jesus concerning resurection? He asked Jesus which wife someone would have when they arise? Jesus said that you don't take wives at that point.
I also have read about the Buddhist idea of entering Nirvana after the need to reincarnate is no longer there. The question in my mind is how would someone know that there is an afterlife unless you still exist as an invidual once there? It's like me saying after I die I will no longer exist. And I know this because I didn't exist for a time and came back to existence. That wouldn't be knowledge at all, there is no way to to have an experience of non-existence because you wouldn't remember anything.
It seems clear to me that heaven and nirvana are one and the same. I would also say that you will have a body there, but a deathless one, that doesn't suffer.
I believe it to be most logical to believe that there is a God who caused your individuality to be, and that this individuality is eternal in one form or another.
There is an idea out there that individuality is some impermanent illusion, one that isn't real, a dream. The solution to this is to wake up, or so they say.
I dissagree totally with the Hindu teaching that life is a lila, some divine play, a dream that God is having, implying that God is asleep. Where will these masters that die after their "enlightenment" go when they die? Will they merge with the whole, or cease to be individuals? Imagine the selfishness of such a thing. To learn so many things, only to voluntarily die/merge into the one? What would be the point of going from being the one, to being an individual only to just go right back where you came from?
Beyond that, why and how did individuality occur in the first place? I remember reading in the Bible a certain person who questioned Jesus concerning resurection? He asked Jesus which wife someone would have when they arise? Jesus said that you don't take wives at that point.
I also have read about the Buddhist idea of entering Nirvana after the need to reincarnate is no longer there. The question in my mind is how would someone know that there is an afterlife unless you still exist as an invidual once there? It's like me saying after I die I will no longer exist. And I know this because I didn't exist for a time and came back to existence. That wouldn't be knowledge at all, there is no way to to have an experience of non-existence because you wouldn't remember anything.
It seems clear to me that heaven and nirvana are one and the same. I would also say that you will have a body there, but a deathless one, that doesn't suffer.
I believe it to be most logical to believe that there is a God who caused your individuality to be, and that this individuality is eternal in one form or another.
Access: Public
Problem solving will never happen should people become interested in such thought as this. Some see problems and seek solutions while others go with the path of least resistance and it is the former that produce change.
Buddhism is very nihilistic and depressing, and for that reason I’m seeking to clarify things. I believe the Buddha was enlightened, but also that his teachings have been tainted by the ignorance of those who came later.
What I have noticed on this perilous “journey” is that the human brain and intellect want to decipher and comprehend (believe me, I have this within me, have an anal and intellectual character that is constantly in need of taming). The problem is that the Eternal circumstance is NOT rope-able. When you understand with your internal self, with your enlightened self, words will not convey it. All of the religions, all of the concepts, all of the teachings are right. Weird, huh? It’s just that they are not fully understandable until the mind gets out of the equation. Sucks, really… for those who work so hard, have reams of material at their quotable finger tips. I’ve felt very sorry for the religious powers on high that are not meant to be given “grace” in this lifetime… so very sad for them indeed. Then there are the x drug addicted murdering street kids who were given grace with the sweep of a moment. Hmmm.
Greetings Daniel.
I hope this reply finds you well
“I also have read about the Buddhist idea of entering Nirvana after
the need to reincarnate is no longer there. The question in my mind is
how would someone know that there is an afterlife unless you still
exist as an invidual once there?”
There is much that can be said in reply to the above quoted statment. Much of it, I feel, is of little use in the grand scheme of this blog entry.
The ‘need’ to reincarnate I feel is in need of address.
Unless one has realized the true nature of mind (enlightened, if you will) there is no choice but to reincarnate. Ones rebirth, in other words, is subject to karma, the effect of previous cause to which we must endure until it has dipleted.
It is those who have realized the nature of mind and are enlightened, if you will, who have the choice whether to remain in Samsara (the opposite, in a sense, of Nirvana) in order to aid and benefit beings. These individuals are those who walk the Bodhisattva path.
So how does one know there is an ‘afterlife’.
If one ‘enters into Nirvana’ one is one with all that is. From mind arises all. Nothing is seperate from mind. The luminous quality of mind is that it knows itself entirely.
–
Of course I am aware that our traditions differ greatly in their delivery. Our goal however is ultimatley the same.
Thank you for the chance to partake in this dialog.
Brother Tharlam,
**First and foremost I must point out that what you have written here is philosophy handed down from those before you, just like fundamentalists of other belief systems such as Christianity. The problem with this is that “it is written in a book,” is no proof of anything.**
“Unless one has realized the true nature of mind (enlightened, if you will) there is no choice but to reincarnate.”
**Enlightenment is oneness with God, or Brahman. The Buddha’s words upon the dawning of his enlightenment show me that he achieved oneness with a God, rather than realizing anything about his own mind:
“Through many a birth I have wandered in samsara, seeking, but never finding the House-Builder. It is such sorrow to take birth again and again.
O House-Builder, Thou art revealed! Thou shalt not build a house for me again. All Thy rafters are broken. Thy ridge-pole is shattered. My mind has entered the unconditioned and reached the end of craving.”
-Dharmapada: 11:8-9
You can see here that the Buddha had been searching for someone he called the House-Builder, who he has spoken of as being other than himself, and therefore not his own mind.**
Of course I am aware that our traditions differ greatly in their delivery. Our goal however is ultimatley the same.
**My goal is to enrich myself eternally by having a loving relationship with God, while yours is to annihilate youself. I believe in the eternity of the self and of God. I don’t believe life is suffering (a buddhist teaching), nor do I believe I don’t exist (a buddhist teaching), and I don’t believe the goal is to destroy my individuality (another buddhist teaching). I think the Buddha would be saddened to see what has happened to his philosophy, just as Jesus would be totally against the trinity idea that many Christians adhere to.**
Sister Michele,
What I have noticed on this perilous “journey” is that the human brain and intellect want to decipher and comprehend
**Yes, the mind is incapable of fully knowing God in a way that can be intellectualize, hence the need for mysticism, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that there is much that we can learn about Him. To fully understand God you would have to be God. His intellect is far more powerful than ours. Therefore, even after knowing Him in meditation words cannot be found to give justice to Him.**
with your enlightened self, words will not convey it. All of the religions, all of the concepts, all of the teachings are right.
**The teachings are right, and beyond that there are things that we will never know.**
Sucks, really… for those who work so hard, have reams of material at their quotable finger tips. I’ve felt very sorry for the religious powers on high that are not meant to be given “grace” in this lifetime… so very sad for them indeed. Then there are the x drug addicted murdering street kids who were given grace with the sweep of a moment. Hmmm.
**Actually, I see some similarity between those Christian fundamentalsits and you. For example, you believe you will merge with God and not exist anymore, which is absurd to me. Maybe a month from now you will happen upon another philosophy and jump to that and proclaim your current philsophy to be “sad.” Jesus died to absorb the sins/karma of his disciples. You cannot be the disciple of someone you have never met. You must seek it and be accepted. Those who hurt others will have to deal with their own karma, just as you, Michele, will have to deal with your own individuality. Picking up some illogical philsophy will not change that.**
Christian Fundamentalists think they’ll merge with God? Anyone who knows me and is a Christian Fundamentalist is now irritated beyond reason : ) They don’t like me much.
Oh ya, and I certainly may jump to another philosophy… bet on that! It’s something to do with meditation and elevation. Things do not remain constant. I didn’t do any of this on purposeyou know. I was happy (ish) being a Roman Catholic, the weekly mass, the ritual and the Christ… didit with great passion for 40 years. I was wholly and totally Christian for four decades. It was God itself that stopped that (I still think Jesus rocks of course : ) I had a series of amazing, extraordinary experiences… not ending with, but truly getting the most crazy with acouple month battle in the fire of Kundalini energy. I hadn’t evenheard of it before, and I nearly and literally almost fried to deathof it! Luckily, Ihave a great friend who identified it… which made it a little more bearable and a little less insane. Whoever heard of a Catholic playing in the Hindu concepts. Turns out my entirelifehas been lived in the Yoga of Service… who knew? Anyway, that’s the origin of my leaping beliefs. They keep leaping, but I’m so very aware of why, of theSource that providesthe new information and moves me from place to place. I just go where I’m told, Daniel. It isn’t logical at all. I wish it was.I took acouple of quarters ofLogic in college, probably my favoritesubject ever!
Transformation is chaos. If anyone out there has gone through it logically, PLEASE let me know. I’d love to hear one logical story of discovering Truth and Reality on a predetermined path (all that I’ve run into are the chaos variety).
Christian Fundamentalists think they’ll merge with God? Anyone who knows me and is a Christian Fundamentalist is now irritated beyond reason : ) They don’t like me much.
**You are misunderstanding my point. I Christian fundamentalist who fanatically thinks they’re saved, but aren’t, is similar to one such as you who thinks they will merge into God but will not. What I’m pointing out is that most people just don’t know how to correctly apply logic, and so they fall for all kinds of nonsense philosophies.**
Oh ya, and I certainly may jump to another philosophy… bet on that! It’s something to do with meditation and elevation. Things do not remain constant. I didn’t do any of this on purposeyou know. I was happy (ish) being a Roman Catholic, the weekly mass, the ritual and the Christ… didit with great passion for 40 years.
**You are going about things in chaos because you are doing it yourself. That is not supposed to happen. If someone wants to master something they usualy seek out someone who claims to be a master. I am unfamiliar with the chaos you’re speaking of. I go about things methodically. **
Keep me around… I will hold your hand (literally, support your endeavors : ) when you hit this. I AM (was-personality) the methodical queen! Eric will definitely tell you that, anal and constructed and bit by bit in logical order is the name of my historical game. It was taken away in a blast. Maybe you’ll get to keep it, but don’t count on it. I do have an accomplice, a “spiritual director”… and I am so entrenched in a group of highly conscious BEings that I can’t feel more blessed. Never worry a moment about me. God has us all well handled.
Hey, and I don’t exactly understand the merging thing yet, so I neither believe I will keep individuality nor think I won’t… so I see your point on individualism… but what seems to occur from those I know is that they kinda lose their individual nature even as humans. Weird people to deal with, but I have a few as role models in my days… and perhaps I’lllive the Oneness thing soon (maybe I need to study more and type less : ).