How has Eternal Being manifested as Egos?

This is a discussion I am having someone who claims he is enlightened. I am the bold and he is the regular. I will update as the discussion continues. Hope you enjoy:

Part 1:

There is no "someone" to realize anything beyond individuality...but that which who/what we really are is not an individual. "Realization" is when the fictitious individual is recognized for what it is and then there is just being.  The individual drops away and then there just is what is. ‘What is' is neither existent nor non-existent...for those are just mental concepts that fail miserably in trying to put into a box what can not be put into a box.

If I understand this correctly, you are implying that we are just being, with no mind, in essence, but somehow being has developed a mind, and this mind has developed a whole personality/self around this mistake.

How did mind develop from this being? Why?

Memory will put you back into delusion - memory is not an ally here.
Experiencing/observing needs a mind, but both need something separate - an object for the subject. Being is simply being...in the moment. It is not an experience.

Cease trying to use the mind to understand. The mind can not understand this.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, has said that the mind finds itself as absolute Being, this to me seems to imply that you will still have a mind, but instead of the mind identifying with a body, it will be merged with consciousness of oneness, a single flowing consciousness. The body and spirit still exist, but they are not perceived at this moment, but the spirit is strengthened by the experience, and upon return to the physical, the body also changes. I think body, spirit, mind all of it boils down to Being, but I think realizing this pure Being is meant to enrich the spirit, not to show you that you aren't the spirit, you are Being expressed as spirit and body.

Just because everything can be realized as Being, doesn't mean the expression of Being are not us, it just means that we are made from being, we are both, we are Being, and non-being, both are true. What do you think?

It is possible, but that is just another part of the illusion. This is still identifying with a mind made creation.

Ok, I see that we are trying to realize Being, but I don't see why body and spirit must be seen as illusion? Like Hydrogen and Oxygen, when they make up water and ice, these manifestations are not an illusion, they are phases of H and O. Water is both Hydrogen and Oxygen, and Ice at the same time, is this not so?

What/who we are is beyond the whole...and does not depend on anything.

Yes, the concept of whole only applies when you are an individual, when you are Being, it is something beyond individuality, but how do you know the Being is truer than individuality? Don't you prefer to be an individual with a good connection to Being?

Picking a belief that is agreeable to the mind will not free you from the creations of the mind.

Yes, I suppose transcending is what will bring you to Being, simple belief won't do, but I think beliefs are necessary, because they give you the means to transcend.

Here is a good question for you, brother, How do you know that Being is not evolving as well? How can you be sure that your Spirit isn't growing bit by bit, while Being is moving ahead as well, and because of this you will have to become a light body, because you have gone beyond the need for a body of flesh as you have now?

Do you know of Siddhar Sivavakiyyar? He has said that after the physical body is no longer needed a light body is used. Did you read how Jesus ascended, do you think that Heaven might be where these spirits with light bodies dwell?

How can you be sure that Being is not evolving? Would you say that Being can't improve? Surely all-powerful Being, can learn, maybe Being has a mind, intellect and emotions, but Being has not seen fit to reveal HimSelf to you, because you have not chosen to devote to Him? What do you say to that, brother?

Namaste to you as well, brother, and thank you for this good discussion.

Part 2: I am the bold, he is regular:

How did mind develop from this being? Why?

The essence of mind...also known as the unborn mind...is being.  Perhaps a slightly different verbage will help.

...this to me seems to imply that you will still have a mind, but instead of the mind identifying with a body, it will be merged with consciousness of oneness, a single flowing consciousness. The body and spirit still exist, but they are not perceived at this moment, but the spirit is strengthened by the experience, and upon return to the physical, the body also changes. I think body, spirit, mind all of it boils down to Being, but I think realizing this pure Being is meant to enrich the spirit, not to show you that you aren't the spirit, you are Being expressed as spirit and body.

The essence of mind is intrinsically pure.  It is not that the essence of mind will be merged with consciousness of oneness...it is that it never was separate from oneness.  It was the thinking mind and identification that caused the split and now that identified consciousness wants to merge with consciousness of oneness.  It is a trap of the thinking (misidentified) mind, caused by the thinking mind, perpetuated by the thinking mind.  Furthermore, letting go of the thinking mind and identifications and realizing the essence of mind (just being)...does not mean you do not perceive the forms of body and spirit.  There is awareness still of the forms of body and spirit.  The body can still act in the world.  There is no return...there is no leaving the physical.

Just because everything can be realized as Being, doesn't mean the expression of Being are not us, it just means that we are made from being, we are both, we are Being, and non-being, both are true. What do you think?

Either all the expressions are us...or none of the expressions are us.  The problem occurs when you want some of the expressions to be you but not others.  We are being...not made from being...all there is is being.  (being is said in a nondual sense, there is no such thing as non-being in how I used the term)

Ok, I see that we are trying to realize Being, but I don't see why body and spirit must be seen as illusion? Like Hydrogen and Oxygen, when they make up water and ice, these manifestations are not an illusion, they are phases of H and O. Water is both Hydrogen and Oxygen, and Ice at the same time, is this not so?

I've tried to explain this to you before, but let's try it this way:

The error is when you say there are things that are not you.  Water is both Hydrogen and Oxygen, and Ice at the same time...yes...but Water is not carbon or helium or etc.  You identify and say this is my body and my spirit...that is the illusion.  Either all the expressions are us...or none of the expressions are us. 

...but how do you know the Being is truer than individuality? Don't you prefer to be an individual with a good connection to Being?

There is an awareness that recognized itself in all forms - and a simultaneous realization that "I" was that awareness.  Tat tvam asi - you are That.  This can be directly realized.  With the realization, there is clear understanding that the individual is a fallacy...not much more than a dream character you dream at night - a character normally not aware that the real "you" has dreamed everything else in the dream that the dream character (what is identified with in the dream) considers separate.  If you are a lucid dreamer and realize you are dreaming...that is similar to what I am talking about.  You realize this is all a dream and even your character is a dream...that everything is you really.

I think beliefs are necessary, because they give you the means to transcend.

Just one more thing that needs to be transcended in the end.  Besides, truth doesn't need to be believed in.  Things that are not directly known (second hand or third hand knowledge)...and lies and fallacies...those need to be believed in to exist.  The truth is, regardless of our beliefs.  It is called insanity and delusion when our beliefs are contract to the truth.  It is best to not believe anything.

How do you know that Being is not evolving as well? How can you be sure that your Spirit isn't growing bit by bit, while Being is moving ahead as well, and because of this you will have to become a light body, because you have gone beyond the need for a body of flesh as you have now?

Forms evolve...what can change in that which has no form?

Do you know of Siddhar Sivavakiyyar? He has said that after the physical body is no longer needed a light body is used. Did you read how Jesus ascended, do you think that Heaven might be where these spirits with light bodies dwell?

Those too are temporary forms that one day shall pass.  No form is permanent.

Surely all-powerful Being, can learn, maybe Being has a mind, intellect and emotions, but Being has not seen fit to reveal HimSelf to you, because you have not chosen to devote to Him? What do you say to that, brother?

Part 3: I am the bold he is the regular:

The essence of mind...also known as the unborn mind...is being.  Perhaps a slightly different verbiage will help.

Why would Being become mind, a lesser version of itself? How did it all start? How did being become deluded, if Being has no mind itself, and not intellect, how can it be deluded? Pure Being, cannot become deluded unless it is an individual, unless it can think.

The essence of mind is intrinsically pure.  It is not that the essence of mind will be merged with consciousness of oneness...it is that it never was separate from oneness.  It was the thinking mind and identification that caused the split and now that identified consciousness wants to merge with consciousness of oneness.  It is a trap of the thinking (misidentified) mind, caused by the thinking mind, perpetuated by the thinking mind.  Furthermore, letting go of the thinking mind and identifications and realizing the essence of mind (just being)...does not mean you do not perceive the forms of body and spirit.  There is awareness still of the forms of body and spirit.  The body can still act in the world.  There is no return...there is no leaving the physical.

How did the thinking mind arise then, how did mind even enter the picture if there is only Being? If there is only Being, where did mind come from? You say the essence of mind is Being, well, that still does not explain how and why mind arose from Being. You haven't explained how mind arose from Being. How did thinking begin? Why?

Either all the expressions are us...or none of the expressions are us.  The problem occurs when you want some of the expressions to be you but not others.  We are being...not made from being...all there is is being.  (being is said in a non-dual sense, there is no such thing as non-being in how I used the term)

We are essentially made from Being, Being is expressing as individuals. We have an aspect that is relative, and an aspect that is unitive, both are us, neither one is more true. We are both impersonal and personal at the same time. Just as we could be said to be a pile of cells, or an individual being depending on how you look at it. When I say non-Being I mean to say the aspect of us that is not individualized. When we enter the state of Being we are Being, but when we are in the relative we are individuals, both are true, water is both water and H2O at the same time, Being is real, and it's relative expressions are real. The relative expression is real, because Being is real. We are expression of Being, when Being is expressed as body and spirit, it is body and spirit, when the mind finds itself as Being it is Being. After enlightenment you have realized that you are an expression of Being. For you to say we are Being and not relative is wrong. That is like 2 people are arguing over whether a puddle is H and O, or if it's water, its both, that's easy to see, it depends on how you look at it.

The error is when you say there are things that are not you.  Water is both Hydrogen and Oxygen, and Ice at the same time...yes...but Water is not carbon or helium or etc.  You identify and say this is my body and my spirit...that is the illusion.  Either all the expressions are us...or none of the expressions are us.

There is no need to choose, that is the point both are real. When you are a 'you' everything else is not you, that is obvious. While you are in the relative it is perfectly correct to say 'I am a man.' Who, thinking logically could argue such a thing? If someone chops your leg off, you will see that you are a man, you will scream just like any man, is this not so? Why is that? It is because you are a man, and a man is an expression of Being. In the beginning there was only Being, then Being expressed as man, because Being, has a mind, He is God, but God hasn't shown HimSelf to you, because you refuse to believe.

Look at this passage from the Bhagavad Gita:

"Though I am unborn and of imperishable nature, though Lord of all beings, yet remaining in my own nature I take birth through My own power of creation."     
Bhagavad Gita 4:6

You can see that God has made us by altering areas within His Being, We are part of Him, even when expressed as individuals, both are true. You refuse to see the obvious, brother.
 
There is an awareness that recognized itself in all forms - and a simultaneous realization that "I" was that awareness.  Tat tvam asi - you are That.  This can be directly realized.  With the realization, there is clear understanding that the individual is a fallacy...not much more than a dream character you dream at night - a character normally not aware that the real "you" has dreamed everything else in the dream that the dream character (what is identified with in the dream) considers separate.  If you are a lucid dreamer and realize you are dreaming...that is similar to what I am talking about.  You realize this is all a dream and even your character is a dream...that everything is you really.

Yes, you realize that you are an individualized expression of Being. Before enlightenment you can know this philosophically, but after enlightenment you realize directly that you are an expression of Being. The individual is not a fallacy, if Being is real, than whatever expression Being takes is also real, whatever is made form something that is real is also real, that is logic. You are not a character being dreamed by yourself, even when a lucid dreamer knows he is dreaming he is still an individual. Also, as I have said if you are dreaming yourself, then you are still an individual, and you say there is no self, you can't have it both ways, brother. It is true that we don't exist independently, we exist dependent upon the existence of the whole, and due to the fact that we are individuals we are free to act as we please.

Just one more thing that needs to be transcended in the end.  Besides, truth doesn't need to be believed in.  Things that are not directly known (second hand or third hand knowledge)...and lies and fallacies...those need to be believed in to exist.  The truth is, regardless of our beliefs.  It is called insanity and delusion when our beliefs are contract to the truth.  It is best to not believe anything.

Of course, objective truth, that is what we want, not only to have faith, but to know directly. By applying logic to our beliefs we can know if they are good beliefs. I believe in science, and science works, the reason why it works is because there is order, and this order is why logic works. You meditated for years before you experienced your Self, you believe in a concept of enlightenment, and you believe meditation would get you there, why would you assume that nothing need be done, that doesn't even match your own experience.

Forms evolve...what can change in that which has no form?

Forms evolve? I thought you said form is an illusion, how can an illusion evolve? From your beliefs, it seems form is Being in a devolved state, if Being can go backwards, how do you know it can't move forward? How do you know Being doesn't have a mind? That is only a belief of yours. The change happens as Being learns, Being has a mind, and therefore it can learn, you just haven't experienced this mind. Why would Ishvara show HimSelf to someone who doesn't wish to know Him? You made your choice.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, ' says the Lord.' For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV

This is why you are still an individual, even after realizing your Self, because only God's mind, stays at the level of Being, your mind is still evolving, that is why you had to meditate to find yourself as Being, and why you will evolve eternally as an individual, and you will always be less than God, so you must devote if you wish for Him to reveal HimSelf.

Those too are temporary forms that one day shall pass.  No form is permanent.

 How do you know they will all pass? A light body can last indefinitely, it is not a vibratory body, it doesn't die. You only believe all forms will pass.

The light body is eternal, it doesn't die like an earthly body, but it isn't necessarily the final form. Being is evolving so a form will always be necessary because we can't catch up to God, He is so above us, we can merge our consciousness with His in meditation, but we then come back to our relative form.

I and Being are one.

Many mystics know that, but you have said there is no self, if there is no self, how can you make the claim that you are one with Being? Oneness requires you to be a self. It requires that you be an individual, you can't escape logic.

Part 4:

Why would Being become mind, a lesser version of itself? How did it all start? How did being become deluded, if Being has no mind itself, and not intellect, how can it be deluded? Pure Being, cannot become deluded unless it is an individual, unless it can think.

Being did not become mind.  Being did not become deluded.  The mind became deluded.  If you knew what Being was, you would not be asking these kinds of questions.

How did the thinking mind arise then, how did mind even enter the picture if there is only Being? If there is only Being, where did mind come from? You say the essence of mind is Being, well, that still does not explain how and why mind arose from Being. You haven't explained how mind arose from Being. How did thinking begin? Why?

I don't care about philosophizing about how it began.  Some people spend all their time discussing how the world began.  Both questions are pointless.  How it began started before humanity began...and we are not even sure how humans began.  It is better to focus on what is now...things we can actually directly experience and understand.  Much of the thinking mind, as we know it today, was learned from our parents, teachers, peers, etc (as I have told you before).  It is habit and assumption that created the thinking mind that is then identified with.

You refuse to see the obvious, brother.

You are fooled by what you see, brother.

even when a lucid dreamer knows he is dreaming he is still an individual.

Not necessarily, I have dreamed as an observer (no longer an individual - but all the characters) - you must watch your assumptions, brother.

Also, as I have said if you are dreaming yourself, then you are still an individual, and you say there is no self, you can't have it both ways, brother.

You are not dreaming yourself - but a character you created.  You only think you are in an individual in the dream if you identify with an individual character...in reality nothing in the dream is separate or another - it is all you.

You meditated for years before you experienced your Self, you believe in a concept of enlightenment, and you believe meditation would get you there, why would you assume that nothing need be done, that doesn't even match your own experience.

Are you even reading my posts...if you are, you haven't understood much.  I never believed meditation would get me there (another assumption on your part), and as I said before - after awakening, there was the deep understanding that nothing was gained or attained...and all effort that I was doing to get there was not helping but interfering.  What I said does indeed match my own experience - but you are trying your best not to hear me.

Forms evolve? I thought you said form is an illusion, how can an illusion evolve?

Illusion...mirage might be a better word.  They may not be ultimately real, but they do temporary exist.  If a magician shows you the stage illusion of sawing someone in half...it was not real, but something did happen.  You can't say it was totally non-existent.  Sawing a Women in half is an illusion that has evolved since the original days of its creation.  Illusion can evolve...but that does not make it anymore real (ultimately).

From your beliefs, it seems form is Being in a devolved state, if Being can go backwards, how do you know it can't move forward?

Watch your mind and assumptions, brother.  If you think I said Being can devolve...you haven't understood a thing I said.

How do you know Being doesn't have a mind? That is only a belief of yours.

Apparently the term essence of mind did not help at all.

This is why you are still an individual, even after realizing your Self, because only God's mind, stays at the level of Being, your mind is still evolving, that is why you had to meditate to find yourself as Being, and why you will evolve eternally as an individual, and you will always be less than God, so you must devote if you wish for Him to reveal HimSelf.

You think this is an individual speaking...no, you haven't understood at all.

How do you know they will all pass? A light body can last indefinitely, it is not a vibratory body, it doesn't die. You only believe all forms will pass.

Do you know your own light body right now?  On what basis do you say this...or is it belief?

if there is no self, how can you make the claim that you are one with Being?

You questioned me in dualistic terms and implying separation...I answered in kind and pointed towards unicity.  There is only Being...there is no "you" or "me" beyond Being's dream.

Oneness requires you to be a self. It requires that you be an individual, you can't escape logic.

Oneness is a misnomer because it implies duality.  There is no oneness...just Being.  As for logic, Eric Hoffer said it best when he said "the Greeks may have invented logic, but they were not fooled by it."

Part 5:

Being did not become mind.  Being did not become deluded.  The mind became deluded.  If you knew what Being was, you would not be asking these kinds of questions.

You stated that mind is essentially Being, if this is so there must have been a process of becoming. If you have realized that you were originally Being, the next question should be why? How did it all start? You have only realized where you came from, but you still have yet to realize the reason, and you don't seem to know what comes next. So, as I was trying to demonstrate, you don't know, enlightenment is to know the truth, if you have only realized part of the truth, how can you claim to be awakened? You aren't finished yet, brother.

I don't care about philosophizing about how it began.  Some people spend all their time discussing how the world began.  Both questions are pointless.  How it began started before humanity began...and we are not even sure how humans began.  It is better to focus on what is now...things we can actually directly experience and understand.  Much of the thinking mind, as we know it today, was learned from our parents, teachers, peers, etc (as I have told you before).  It is habit and assumption that created the thinking mind that is then identified with.

Of course you don't care, because if you did, you would have to continue searching, you would have to humble yourself, and admit that you still don't understand. When someone can't understand something, it is such a sign of weakness to just say, 'who cares, no one can know such a thing.' The correct answer is, 'I don't know.' You say, the mind became deluded, that means you accept cause and effect, so what caused the first effect? That is the next thing you should look for, if you sencerly want to be liberated. Siddhar Sivavakiyyar has said, 'the Lord will reveal HimSelf.' Marishi Mahesh Yogi has also called Him the Lord, Vyasa in Bhagavad Gita called him the 'Friend of all Beings.' Maharishi was greater than you, had more knowledge than you, much more scholarly than you. I wonder why we have a record of all these Prophets coming, has the general popluation been fooled for thousands of years? Again and again? Has Maharishi lied? What makes you greater than Maharishi? What makes you greater than Siddhar Sivavakiyyar? The awakened one who says, 'I DON'T KNOW.' in the cop-out form of, 'I DON'T CARE.' You would be a great teacher for those who would like some of the truth.

Not necessarily, I have dreamed as an observer (no longer an individual - but all the characters) - you must watch your assumptions, brother.

Yes, and that was a dream wasn't it, have you not awakened to realize you were still you?

You are not dreaming yourself - but a character you created.  You only think you are in an individual in the dream if you identify with an individual character...in reality nothing in the dream is separate or another - it is all you.

You have already said there is no self, how can you have created anything? Who are you? Are you everthing? If you are everything, expressing as Eric Putkonen, who am I? If you are everything, did you create me? You are reading what I have typed, I assure you I am typing it. What nonsense! You exist in a certain point in Being. You are an expression of Being, therefore you are both an indvidual and Being, that will stand up very well, for those of us who consider ourselves sane, and who are logical.

Illusion...mirage might be a better word.  They may not be ultimately real, but they do temporary exist.  If a magician shows you the stage illusion of sawing someone in half...it was not real, but something did happen.  You can't say it was totally non-existent.  Sawing a Women in half is an illusion that has evolved since the original days of its creation.  Illusion can evolve...but that does not make it anymore real (ultimately).

It was an illusion, but all the actors were real, those watching were real, that is different. What do you mean they 'may not' be unlitimately real, you say all form is temporary, and an illusion, how do you know that this 'mirage' will every pass? If it can last indefinatly, how can it be temporary? Everything has expressed from Being, since Being is real, everthing it expresses as is real, more logic for you, brother.

You think this is an individual speaking...no, you haven't understood at all.

I know there is one, I have directly experienced this, as you have directly experienced Being, unless you are insane still? Maybe you imagined seeing Being? Once insane, always insane I guess?

Do you know your own light body right now?  On what basis do you say this...or is it belief?

Yes, it is a belief, because unlike you I can say, 'I don't know', just as you don't know all form is impermanent, just as you believe you know the truth, but don't care to know, just as you believe that it doesn't matter how you were created, but you don't know it doens't matter, beliefs are something we have in common.

Oneness requires you to be a self. It requires that you be an individual, you can't escape logic.

Oneness is a misnomer because it implies duality.  There is no oneness...just Being.  As for logic, Eric Hoffer said it best when he said "the Greeks may have invented logic, but they were not fooled by it."

We are one and many at the same time, this is possible for God. We are areas within His Being which have been altered, the illusion is that we aren't connected, as my teacher says, 'we have functionally, though not essentially, seperated from the whole.' Maybe you know better than him too? Oh that's right, you don't care, so you don't have to know. So, who is the House-Builder? Do you not care?

Let those who are reading this take note, Eric does not know how he came to be an individual, he does not know why he became one, and he doesn't believe in logic. The awakened one who doesn't know!

Namaste, Mr. not-know-it-all. What was your site again? Oh wait, I already don't know, maybe not after all. You are contributing to the endless teachers who are teaching guesses and lies, I doubt God would approve of such a thing. Does God exists, oh yeah, you don't know.